Somehow one of the packages in the xfce4 group include x-server as dependencies, so this isn't right.

About the xorg dependencies: you can use xfce without Xorg server on the box you installed it on. Either with some non-free X implementation or some X implementation on a remote box. When I install gnome on debian for example, I will get a pure gnome environment without Xorg, this should be the same on archlinux with xfce.

Point taken - thanks for the explanation. Assuming KDE is treated the same way, you'd better have a look at that too - it also pulls in xorg-server, and the rest of those listed above.

I don't have stats to back this up, but I believe the majority of DE users, regardless of flavour or distro, will use the DE and the x-server on the same box - that's where I was coming from. Offhand, I can think of one other example (bmpx) where deps are installed to accommodate the most common configuration, even though they are not technically necessary. It's the "sane defaults" concept, I suppose, although I do appreciate the flexibility offered by your alternative.

I think it's logical to include the xorg dummy package in the gnome, kde and xfce4 groups. This would trigger installation of xorg, but since it's only member of a group, it isn't a hard dependency.

Jan shouldn't we reassign it to Neri?

since xfce-util brings a startxfce4 script, which resembles the functionality of startx just xfce4 specific I made xorg a dependency of it. I think that is an allright assumption and it brings in a functioning x-server.

You know xorg is a shitty dummy package that shouldn't be depended on?
Also, what if you do want xinit, but not a complete X server (XFCE on a terminal server, xorg-server on remote clients)

Well Jan that's a good point. xfce4 is supposed to be started by starxfce4 which needs the X-server. Waht dependency would you suggest to pull in a working X installation?

Packages should not depend on this dummy transition package. Installing xfce will force you to install a vesa driver which you don't need, a mouse and keyboard driver which you don't need in case you want evdev, etc. Also, what if I run xfce on a terminal server? does my terminalserver need xorg-server?

the point is that xfce-utils (the startxfce4 bash script) is a wrapper for startx hence it is dependent.

[rk@server ~]$ pacman -Qo `which startx`
/usr/bin/startx is owned by xorg-xinit 1.0.4-1

so it should depend on xorg-xinit, not dummy xorg package

Just as packages like git mention in their install scripts that tk is needed for certain functionality, so should xfce4 mention that xorg-xinit is needed for startxfce4. XFCE4 itself doesn't need a local xorg installation to be useful, so pretending that it does require it seems unnecessary.