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Tasklist

FS#2935 - Fluxbox-devel, should be brought into extra

Attached to Project: Arch Linux
Opened by James Rayner (iphitus) - Saturday, 09 July 2005, 11:05 GMT
Last edited by Damir Perisa (damir.perisa) - Saturday, 09 July 2005, 14:54 GMT
Task Type Bug Report
Category Packages: Unstable
Status Closed
Assigned To Tobias Kieslich (tobias)
Architecture not specified
Severity Low
Priority Low
Reported Version 0.7 Wombat
Due in Version Undecided
Due Date Undecided
Percent Complete 0%
Votes 0
Private No

Details

This issue has been debated to death on the forums, and yet another post about it has been posted, so I figured I'd bring it to the attention of the developers again.

Fluxbox-devel (0.9.x) is not unstable.

-- It's considered by many (everyone) to be more stable than the 'stable' fluxbox (0.1.14)

-- stable/Fluxbox is unsupported. If anyone asks a question of it, the first any other fluxbox user will do is suggest that they update to fluxbox-devel.

-- Fluxbox developers will also suggest to people to use the 'unstable' version.

-- The old version of fluxbox no longer even compiles.

-- The fluxbox mainpage lists stable as (old, unmaintained), and the devel as (maintained, also stable).

-- This message from one of the fluxbox devs raises a good point http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?p=90475#90475

-- The users want fluxbox-devel.
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=13648
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=12678
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=12691
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=6813
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=10241
http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?t=12383

-- "We try to stay fairly bleeding edge, and typically have the latest stable versions of software."
http://www.archlinux.org/about.php

-- The Official Fluxbox IRC channel's topic: fluxbox.org devel: 0.9.13, fluxbox.org/version-0.9.php |DOCS:fluxbox.sf.net/docbook/en/html ......
doesnt even mention stable.

-- devel has better support for multiple screens, and window manager standards.

-- And why everyone wants it, more features.

Solution, bring fluxbox-devel into extra along with regular fluxbox.
This task depends upon

Closed by  Tobias Kieslich (tobias)
Monday, 18 July 2005, 10:09 GMT
Reason for closing:  Fixed
Additional comments about closing:  finally :)
done
Comment by dtw (dibblethewrecker) - Saturday, 09 July 2005, 12:30 GMT
This really needs to happen now - I know the gcc4 upgrade is supposed to break fluxbox-stable and so when that happens fluxbox-devel will go current by why do we have to wait?

Because of a name?
Comment by ozar (ozar) - Saturday, 09 July 2005, 14:25 GMT
I think perhaps part of the problem is in the terminology and/or naming convention used on the Fluxbox website itself.

They call it Fluxbox-devel but then turn around and say it's the stable version, which it truly is. They go on to say that the so-called "Stable" version is no longer maintained. Considering that very few users are using v0.1.14 and it appears to be outdated, I agree with iphitus and dibblethewrecker and suggest that Fluxbox-devel should be moved to Arch's stable repo.

Thanks for accepting my thoughts on the matter... :)
Comment by Damir Perisa (damir.perisa) - Saturday, 09 July 2005, 14:58 GMT
assigned to fluxbox maintainer

my thinking is that if fluxbox devs say that the unstable version is more stable than the stable, then they should announce the unstable version the stable one.

there is no sense in having fluxbox and fluxbox-devel pkgs in [extra]. either we drop fluxbox-devel (from [unstable]) and use fluxbox (from [extra]) that provides the unstable version, or we let it as it is now. developement (suffix "devel") versions of packages should stay in [unstable]

what reason do the fluxbox devels have to let it as it is now? why not dropping the old one and move the new one to be the official stable one?
Comment by James Rayner (iphitus) - Saturday, 09 July 2005, 15:28 GMT
I think that there are a few features they want to implement before they release this as 1.0, the next stable release. Right now they are catching up on a handfull of translations and pieces of documentation too.

From what I understand, they will announce it as superseding the past stable version when it hits 1.0.
Comment by Tobias Kieslich (tobias) - Saturday, 09 July 2005, 16:45 GMT
currently, I don't care about the upstream versioning anymore, cuz statements like "current is old and unstable is stable and hence current and green ist better than blue anyway" really piss me of. creates more headache than I can stand.
The actual reason for leaving things as it is, is that I don't wanna kick a working software (fluxbox-"stable") from the repos since a whole bunch of people still use it mainly on old boxes. I mean it's so far just a naming issue. If it doesn't work with gcc4 we are through with this topic anyway and fluxbox-devel will die in unstable and be reborn as fluxbox in extra. And adding two versions of the same software to one repo is also confusing. An "retired" repo would be good, but overkill.
Comment by James (James) - Saturday, 09 July 2005, 17:53 GMT
This ain't Debian. Just do what was done with XFCE, move the new one in and keep the old one for hard-core users. So, "fluxbox-devel" becomes "fluxbox" and the old "fluxbox" package is renamed to "fluxbox-obsolete", or something like that.
Comment by sepht (sepht) - Saturday, 09 July 2005, 18:24 GMT
I made a basic arguement in my forum post, so better to read that.
Project started in late 2001; The "stable" branch had its last release in Late 2002. Early 2003, the fluxbox guys dropped the roadmap from devel to stable and left devel as the main tree. It's mid 2005 now, and fluxbox devel is considered stable, thats how its listed on their website.

Sorry to be the one to add this: but even Debian Stable(sarge) features the fluxbox devel tree, v0.9.11.
Comment by James Rayner (iphitus) - Sunday, 10 July 2005, 03:40 GMT
Well, other distros dont provide the old version.

Probably because Fluxbox stable doesnt even compile now, with GCC3.
Comment by Philipp Wesche (samsara) - Sunday, 10 July 2005, 17:35 GMT
While I agree that Fluxbox 0.9.yourchoice should be stable, I don't think that Debian's QA is the gold standard any more.
Comment by tranxene (tranxene) - Sunday, 10 July 2005, 17:53 GMT
one time i agree with iphitus! i exclusively use fb-devel since a year and i've never had a problem with. yes, why not replace fluxbox 1.14? anyway, it wont be lost because it will still be available on mirrors like a bunch of other "outdated" packages.
Comment by James Rayner (iphitus) - Monday, 11 July 2005, 00:19 GMT
Phil: Mandrake, Fedora, and most other RPM based distros also distribute 0.9x.

And because Debian does, it's derivatives all do, Ubuntu, etc.
Comment by ozar (ozar) - Monday, 11 July 2005, 00:32 GMT
Regarding other distros carrying the 0.9.xx versions, Slackware put version 0.9.12 in Slackware 10.1 several months ago, and it's showing up in the "/current" mirrors.
Comment by Aaron Griffin (phrakture) - Monday, 11 July 2005, 02:05 GMT
God, I wish I cared about this as much as the zealots - it's just a naming scheme... sheesh

Just remove the old version, if people whine point them here....
Comment by dtw (dibblethewrecker) - Monday, 11 July 2005, 12:34 GMT
How admirable that you care so little but take the time to post.

Over the course of this arguement, which has waged for aeons it seems, I have often seen people defend the users of fluxbox-stable BUT I think I have only once or twice actually seen someone say they use it - are we advocating for people who don't exist? Where are they now?

Seeing as fluxbox-stable needs a gcc patch but fluxbox-devel does not it also raises questions of which is the more stable!

It's funny to consider that if they had forked fluxbox from 0.1.14 and called it fluxbox2 we would never even have had this debate - it would have gone straight in [extra]!
Comment by Tobias Kieslich (tobias) - Monday, 11 July 2005, 13:48 GMT
dibble, this was my guess actually, I've always heard about the people and I saw the statistics on archstat. But if nobody defenses this package then I dun wann be the devel advocate any longer. This is their chance. Give them time til the end of the week. I won't sing at the funeral. Personally I have no problem to kick that package if it doesn't build at all - less trouble for me.

Even if it was called fluxbox-ng it would be there, I inherited the mess from the former maintainer.

Speaking about the future: --enable-imlib or --disable-imlib? Any suggestions?
Comment by Robert Emil Berge (filoktetes) - Monday, 11 July 2005, 21:58 GMT
Please throw away the old one, and put the new one in. I always keep up to date current and extra on my laptop, to easily install Arch on my the computers of my friends, which happen quite often. So, of course, the only package I need the internet for is fluxbox, since thats where the up to date fluxbox is. Often they have to go for days with a window manager from the beginning of the century. Well, I am one of those who have written about this before, so I will not go on. It seems the opinions are quite clear.
Comment by Philipp Wesche (samsara) - Tuesday, 12 July 2005, 01:35 GMT
James: I was just having a rant about Debian Sarge. I'm aware that 0.9.xx is being used by most distros. Cheers.
Comment by James Rayner (iphitus) - Tuesday, 12 July 2005, 01:50 GMT
Tobias: Probably enable imlib, it lets people use pngs and other formats for themes.
Comment by dtw (dibblethewrecker) - Sunday, 17 July 2005, 08:29 GMT
mmmm - def do that!
Comment by Tobias Kieslich (tobias) - Sunday, 17 July 2005, 09:20 GMT
done and done - moved to extra with imlib enabled
the fluxbox-devel will die when Judd kills the directory from cvs

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